Charger Types - compatibility with Lithium Batteries SX-BC-CONV

Vectrix VX-1 is equipped with 1.5kW onboard charger.

Since 2007 there were 3 types of chargers in use:

1. ESD (silver) charger with round connectors

2. ESD (silver) charger with square connectors

3. EVPS (Runke, gold) charger in various revisions (from 1.0 to 4.0)


EVPS (Runke) charger revision 1.9 or higher (2.0, 2.1, 2.1N, 3.0, 4.0) is fully compatible with BMS used in Lithium batteries. We recommend revision 3.0 or 4.0 as most reliable.


ESD chargers requaires bord modification - refer to ESD Charger Upgrade to Li


EVPS chargers earlier then 1.9 - for example 1.7 requaire controll board replacement - refer to EVPS Board 1.9


Chargers identification.

First step identyfication (ESD vs EVPS) can be performed without disassembling scooter:




ESD charger has aluminium housing in silver / gray color, double cooling fan and both connectors (AC and DC) on the bottom.







EVPS (Runke) Chargers have metal housing in gold color, single cooling fan and connectors on top:



ESD Charger revision is coded in the serial number of charger.



If serial number includes V20, V21 or V30 - this is the revision (2.0, 2.1, 3.0)

If serial number does not include letter V - it is requaired to open the charger housing and inspect controll board. Board compatible with Li software - 1.9 looks like this:






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+1

I have a VX-1 Li 30Ah. I made a conversion with Samsung 18650 29E batteries, 36S36P.

My charger is a Runke gold revision 2.1 . Is it possible to re-use the original BMS? Is there for this

conversion a BMS wiring diagram? What kind of software do i need?

I send you some pictures and a excel sheet how this conversion looks like.




Answer

Roos

Yes you can use our VX-1 Universal BMS in Li-ion 36S configuration. If your bike was a NiMH before - you would need to replace also wire harness between charger and BMS box. Check here SX-02240. We can supply the harness between the cells and BMS or you can make it yourself using D-Sub 25 pin connectors and wires based on the wire-diagram.


Let me know if you need any further information on the system. BMS is programable via CAN - at this moment with pre-configured files (supplied for free), firmware for charger and MC is available here VX-1 Li-ion 36S Firmware package


Best Regards


Piotr

Piotr,

I all ready have 4 x BMS board from former Li 30Ah pack. Do i need a full Universal BMS or can it be

done only with a BMS case and BMS adaptor + wire harness ?

Yes you can reuse the boards you have with our box/adaptor kit.

Roo, with the 200A fuse mounted in the middle of the pack you risk damaging part of the BMS if the fuse were to blow under load you would have almost full battery voltage (35 of the 36 cells) applied across one section of the BMS balance connections (module 18 or 19 depending upon which end of the fuse the balance lead is connected to).


I thought this is the same way as the former Li+ pack connections?

If you are using our BMS system - each 9 cells are on seperate circutes, without sharing ground of battery. (board 0 - cells 1-9, board 1 cells 10-18, board 2 cells 19-27, board 3 cells 28-36) and splitiing the pack in half (or in 4) doesn't affect / damage the BMS.

Regards

Thanks Piotr for clarifying the isolation between the 4 separate BMS boards, and I apologise if I have caused any unnecessary worries or confusion.

I was initially concerned that the position of the fuse could potentially cause damage to the BMS, I'm happy now that it can't.

No worries. I'm happy to share details of our technolog.

Hello Piotr

I`m living near Regensburg/Bayer

3 years ago i assembled 100AhLi to a Vectrix.

now i`m improving my (NMH)Vectrix to Lifepo4

I have Canbus adapter and Software.

i want to use orginal Charger. (45S~ 162V)

How to set Charging Parameters from 153V->162V

how to change Charging programm to IUA

have 40Ah LiFepo4

Own BMS (Load type)

want to Set MAX Voltage to 162V

miniumum Voltage 126V

How to to?

Thank You

Reinhold


Reinhold

Unfortunately charger with Lithium firmware (both LiFe and Li-ion) needs to communicate with BMS via CANBus. Othwerwise it won't work. The same with MC if upgraded with Li firmware.

For non CAN configuration - check visforvoltage and look for Laird firmware - it's based on NiMH so both charger and MC care only about the pack voltage - not cell voltage as our Lithium system.

I still reccomend you our BMS system - it's easy to damage battery if voltage is not controlled on the cell level. At least you need to protect the cells from overcharging (because it can blow/fire your battery) - so if you use your own BMS let it interrupt charging (by contactor for example) whenever any cell exceeds 4.25V

Regards

Dear Piotr,


We have two VX-1, year 2011. The batteries are weak, so we would like to upgrade them to Li. One of the charger doesn't work. We have a complete Nissan Leaf battery pack. Plese tell me, what else is neccesarry for this projekt from your shop?


Thank you,


George

Gyorgy

If bikes where NiMH you need to buy BMS set and charger to BMS wire harness.

For leaf conversion we offer also battery box, harness and top PCB - all available in our online shop:

shop.vectrixparts.com

Hello Piotr,

We talked in July about a battery problem. I would like to buy a new BMS. But store disappeared.

I hope it's not game over.   I hope you (as a person) are ok.

sylvain_lecoeur@hotmail.com

hello piotr

I have a vectrix vx1 li+ but my battery are died.

So I would like to transform my lifepo4 by cells panasonic NCR18650B.

My charger is a gold with serial V21, I have 4 BMS board with 10 connections Each for 10 cells.

Can I reused these BMS board with only 8 cells (36s and not 40s before with the lifepo4) and use your box adaptator following http://shop.vectrixparts.com/vx1-bms-adaptor-pcb-case.html

Thanks a lot for your help

Clement


yes you can just cell 9 or 10 need to be shorted with the upper cell of the module.

Hello Mateo

Thanks for your feedback, In attachment, I have drown a battery modification, you are ok with this schematic ? Thanks clement

If you will use it with the adaptor board bought from us we can prepare the adaptor to suit you.

Generally - V10 and V9 has to connected to V8 (positive)


Regards

Hi Piotr,


I am trying to determine the compatibility of my charger and even though your tekst has already been very helpfull, it did leave me with a few questions.


You explicitly mention revisions and their different compatibilities for Runke chargers.
You also mention that there are two different ESD chargers and that ESD chargers require board modifications.
Then however you demonstrate how to identify the revision of ESD chargers and what boards are compatible with Li software - 1.9,
and in your webshop you sell ESD Silver Charger v2.0 for Ni and Li weighting 10KG as well as offer a service to upgrade the ESD charger to Li weighting 12KG.


--


- Are there stock ESD chargers that are compatible with both Ni and Li, or do only modded ESD chargers support both? (What ESD chargers are compatible with both NI and Li?)
- Is the 10 KG li + Ni capable ESD charger from your webshop a modded charger, and why is it 2 KG lighter then the original ESD charger that could be send to you for modding?


Regards

-1

Berend

ESD chargers (silver with aluminium casting and double fan) - there are two types - round connectors and square connectors. There is no other difference between them. Both need a controll board upgrade to use with Li batteries. To be frank though, we don't reccomend them at all for Li batteries - at the last stage of charging, when cell balancing is done at the very low current (0.3A) ESD chargers sometimes freeze, sometimes fail completly.For NiMH batteries it is a great charger though - if housing is sealed with silicon it can last forever.


EVPS (Runke) chargers are in gold square box, with single fan - they were manufactured between 2009 and 2013 in vew revisions 1.5, 1.9, 2.0, 2.0N, 3.0, and there was a revision 3.0NFD  sold by us only. In general it is not a good quality charger, some power diodes on main board fail quite often, sometimes another few components around resulting with NO Ouput failure. We were selling these chargers afer reworking / upgrading them (added fuese on AC side, better diode, changed some resistor etc). We still have some stock of them - used mostly for older bikes / warranty purpose.Look for S00540 in our online shop (www.shop.vectrixparts.com) - it comes with warranty and is upgraded to the best we coudl do with this hardware.


If you have Li scooter or planning conversion - we strongly reccomend new type of charger 3.3.kW TC charger - available in our shop online (S00541). It is not cheap but realy worth its price - fully enclosed IP67, manufactured in thousands for an electric cars, zero failure rate after selling over 200 of them, completly quite and double power (half time to charge) comparing to ESD/EVPS.

Is the picture above for using original bms-boards in 36s setup instead of 40s setup right?

I'm doing a similar conversion with samsung INR18650-25R cells.

Great resource this forum ;o)

Hi Gunther,


Yes, you can use original BMS boards in both configuration(36s and 40s). Differences are in connection and software configuration.

hello piotr or Mateo 

I have 2 questions :

- I cannot communicated with the ICM board (red in the diagnostic soft), it’s possible to send you the ICM board and reprogramming the PIC ? 

- I want convert the vx1 with 52Ah, but it’s possible to configure the charger with this power ? How I can configure the soft?

Thanks for your feedback

Clément 

Clement

Yes you can send us the ICM board - we will try to repair it.

What charger do you have?

Hello Piotr 


Thanks for your feedback, but I have bought a pic debugger and I succeed to debug the ICM board. 

Thanks

Clement 

Hi Peter, I'm currently running 19 Leaf modules with latest Dugas firmware. It's 2007 VX1 with ESD charger. No other mods on a bike. Would you please suggest what options I have for the BMS from you? 

Andrei. 

Sorry, spell checker, Piotr... 

Hello Piotr, 

I'm new here though it's my second WX 1. never modified exept by a reseller during warranty time ( fast charger now)

in about 6 years and 2 VX: 1rst problem....:)

 No more charging. Stops after few seconds and displaying  : high 430   low  292.

after several tries, charging came back for 1 time only.

a former owner of VX 1 helped me.

result is on photo.

I guess I shoul change 1 cell, maybe two.   or is it a BMS mistake?  and can I easily slow down the charging current to make batteries last longer?

Thank you.

P.S.   VX is given for 180km and Itried successfully 140 when I bought it (used, 1000 KM)

After trying contacting Vecrix team over email, posting here, opening a private ticket, nobody came back to me. So, don't spend your time waiting for the reply here.  

Hi,

   The charger firmware aborts the charging process if any of the measured cell values - in fact any of the four High Cell values - are above 4.2 V. This is for safety reasons.


Your problem in the 4.209 V on that block, that needs to be fixed. Since the block under it shows as 3.941 V it is quite possible the small wires that are used for the measurement have a minor contact problem distorting the values measured by the BMS.


The BMS is simply a 4x9 channel multimeter (ADC) in its default state when the balancing is inactive.

/ Azzuro



Thank you very much Azzuro.

the next question is:


Fisrt step: opening VX to check cables

2) recheck cells with canbus

3) check the cell with a multimeter

4) if really above 4.2, slightly and slowly dichage the cell with the right resistance value (U=R*I) let's say 100mA  R= 4/0.1=40 ohms 0.5 watts.

5) restart charger when cell is around 4.08


Am I right?


If it restarts, I'll try if a cell goes down again under 2.92 riding. As it did as first symptom. Before charging worked 1 time only after several tries .



Thank you.

Almost :) You can skip the step 2 - the values you see in the Diag are based on CAN bus.


3) Check all suspected cells with a multimeter when the Vectrix is off and while it is on

4) Check the respective cell measuring points on the BMS card


The next step can be decided based on the results.

Hello Azzuro,

Back with my problem. I checked all I could (even inside theBMS wich had a internal plug slightly moving). swapped the two DB25 plugs. The problem swapped too on the screen (slightly different). That mean it could be from the battery pack.  

Balance can't be achieved. (hi 4.15; low 4.08) after 10 hours in EO mode. never stops.

now; gauge never goes higher than 13 bars. I will recheck manually cell by cell to compare BMS and multimeter. and see if one cell still looses 1volt in 30 seconds as charged with multimetrer.. but not with BMS plugged.

Shop for parts has disappeared. Do you know anything about?

Thank you.

Indeed the voltage measurements (per cell block vs. BMS) are needed to see if it is an issue with the cells or the sensing wires.

The stock BMS works on a simple concept called top balancing, it will attempt to charge all cell blocks to 4.2 volts. In the EQ mode the blocks which reached this voltage are "discharged" with the respective balancing resistors - however due to an equivalent 1A charging current still flowing they actually maintain their voltage level. The rest of the cell blocks are still charged up in order to reach the same nominal 4.2 volts eventually.

The gauge is not really important, it is just FYI for the expert user :) You can set it to any level you want from the diag app.

Yep the shop webpage has disappeared, maybe Vectrix is sunsetting their support - hoping users will support each other with the knowledge and parts we collected over the years.

Thank you very very very much.

I was wondering how to save THIS site before it closes....

something like a page vaccum cleaner. to recreate another site.

sylvain_lecoeur@hotmail.com

Bnos dias estoy mirando comprar una vx1 para hacer el cambio a baterias litio de panasonic son celdas de 3.2v y 5 ah , que mas necesitaria poner para que todo funcione correctamente? e visto en su web que el cargador que vendeis es a 48 voltios , es una falla , la bateria tienen que tener 130 voltios y me estoy volviendo un poco loco , una vez instalado todo , deveria hacer algun tipo de actualizacion?

gramocias por su tiempo

I'm currently converting from Nimh to Li, I already have the BMS, now only the loader is missing. The vectrix shop has disappeared. Where can I have my loader converted or buy a finished one
Thank you for the information.
Can you help me how I can get a charger for 38 cells with 3.7V or how I can have my Nimh charger converted?

Hi Thomas,


   There are two types of chargers, the older ones with silver housing and the newer golden "Runke" ones. Which type do you have including the product / version number ?

Hi there,

2 cables without plugs come out at the bottom of the charger.
The loader is silver and has a sticker with the following inscription.

Part No P00
Serial No S000696
Software V4.20
Hardware P 1.42-D

On the inside there is another connector labeled J1 Battery Charger V5000

2 fans can be seen

I still have a charger from my parts dispenser.
With the inscription

ESD
SW: V2.008
HW: P1.48

The housing is silver and has 2 square plugs at the bottom. 2 fans can be seen on the inside

That is the old charger, the most you can have is withthe Dugas firmware and software (http://dugasengineering-com.3dcartstores.com/Vectrix-Support_c_16.html) allowing you to set up your charger for Li-Ion. This would give you sufficient functionality - however as with all Li-Ion you must add BMS as well. The challenge is no BMS will be able to communicate to this charger not even the Vectrix ones.Accordingly the BMS should work independently from the charger.

In summary it is pretty complex with this charger. The golden Runke (only V2) is the good candidate or even the Elcon TC family which is the best.

OK, where can I get an Elcon TC?

These are fairly standard and could be found in many EV related webshops, I got mine from the Aliexpress. For the Vectrix the HK-J-144-23 version is the proper one (must be capable to provide the required 150 V voltage basically).

I will build in mine in the next few months and can share the details along the way (currently I am still on Runke V2).

that also fits with the Vectrix BMS?

Theoretically yes - I will know only when I see it working - a matching BMS firmware version will be needed. A converter cable is also required which was available from the Vectrix webshop but can be reproduced as well.

Overall it is not easy but doable. The net result would be a 3.3kW charger that is two times faster than any of the original Vectrix chargers.

Hello Azzuro,

I have another problem. Since my Vectrix only drives 100kmh I uploaded the update from the service page to the Vectrix. then I also calibrated the encoder. So far everything has worked. But now the Vectrix drives backwards instead of forwards.
I did the rotation test in the diagnosis software and the wheel is turning the right way round.
Where is the mistake

Hi Thomas,


   That is a strange problem :) When you mention encoder, is that the throttle on the handlebar or the encoder on the rear wheel ?

The encoder for the rear wheel. it can be calibrated in the diagnostic software. 
Strangely enough, the wheel turns around correctly when you press the button for rotation test.
When I accelerate, the light in the cockpit lights up for reverse.

To be honest I have never touched that encoder. You can try to lift the rear of the bike and try different things in the diag including reverse throttle if that is reversed as well.

You mentioned firmware update, you can try to go back to the original version if that fixes the problem. To this point if your battery is in proper shape the top speed should be more that 110 km/h indeed, with some versions close to 130 km/h.