Charger Types - compatibility with Lithium Batteries SX-BC-CONV

Thanks Piotr for clarifying the isolation between the 4 separate BMS boards, and I apologise if I have caused any unnecessary worries or confusion.

I was initially concerned that the position of the fuse could potentially cause damage to the BMS, I'm happy now that it can't.

No worries. I'm happy to share details of our technolog.

Hello Piotr

I`m living near Regensburg/Bayer

3 years ago i assembled 100AhLi to a Vectrix.

now i`m improving my (NMH)Vectrix to Lifepo4

I have Canbus adapter and Software.

i want to use orginal Charger. (45S~ 162V)

How to set Charging Parameters from 153V->162V

how to change Charging programm to IUA

have 40Ah LiFepo4

Own BMS (Load type)

want to Set MAX Voltage to 162V

miniumum Voltage 126V

How to to?

Thank You

Reinhold

Reinhold

Unfortunately charger with Lithium firmware (both LiFe and Li-ion) needs to communicate with BMS via CANBus. Othwerwise it won't work. The same with MC if upgraded with Li firmware.

For non CAN configuration - check visforvoltage and look for Laird firmware - it's based on NiMH so both charger and MC care only about the pack voltage - not cell voltage as our Lithium system.

I still reccomend you our BMS system - it's easy to damage battery if voltage is not controlled on the cell level. At least you need to protect the cells from overcharging (because it can blow/fire your battery) - so if you use your own BMS let it interrupt charging (by contactor for example) whenever any cell exceeds 4.25V

Regards

Dear Piotr,

We have two VX-1, year 2011. The batteries are weak, so we would like to upgrade them to Li. One of the charger doesn't work. We have a complete Nissan Leaf battery pack. Plese tell me, what else is neccesarry for this projekt from your shop?

Thank you,

George

Gyorgy

If bikes where NiMH you need to buy BMS set and charger to BMS wire harness.

For leaf conversion we offer also battery box, harness and top PCB - all available in our online shop:

shop.vectrixparts.com

Hello Piotr,

We talked in July about a battery problem. I would like to buy a new BMS. But store disappeared.

I hope it's not game over.   I hope you (as a person) are ok.

sylvain_lecoeur@hotmail.com

hello piotr

I have a vectrix vx1 li+ but my battery are died.

So I would like to transform my lifepo4 by cells panasonic NCR18650B.

My charger is a gold with serial V21, I have 4 BMS board with 10 connections Each for 10 cells.

Can I reused these BMS board with only 8 cells (36s and not 40s before with the lifepo4) and use your box adaptator following http://shop.vectrixparts.com/vx1-bms-adaptor-pcb-case.html

Thanks a lot for your help

Clement

yes you can just cell 9 or 10 need to be shorted with the upper cell of the module.

Hello Mateo

Thanks for your feedback, In attachment, I have drown a battery modification, you are ok with this schematic ? Thanks clement

If you will use it with the adaptor board bought from us we can prepare the adaptor to suit you.

Generally - V10 and V9 has to connected to V8 (positive)

Regards

Hi Piotr,

I am trying to determine the compatibility of my charger and even though your tekst has already been very helpfull, it did leave me with a few questions.

You explicitly mention revisions and their different compatibilities for Runke chargers.
You also mention that there are two different ESD chargers and that ESD chargers require board modifications.
Then however you demonstrate how to identify the revision of ESD chargers and what boards are compatible with Li software - 1.9,
and in your webshop you sell ESD Silver Charger v2.0 for Ni and Li weighting 10KG as well as offer a service to upgrade the ESD charger to Li weighting 12KG.

--

- Are there stock ESD chargers that are compatible with both Ni and Li, or do only modded ESD chargers support both? (What ESD chargers are compatible with both NI and Li?)
- Is the 10 KG li + Ni capable ESD charger from your webshop a modded charger, and why is it 2 KG lighter then the original ESD charger that could be send to you for modding?

Regards

Berend

ESD chargers (silver with aluminium casting and double fan) - there are two types - round connectors and square connectors. There is no other difference between them. Both need a controll board upgrade to use with Li batteries. To be frank though, we don't reccomend them at all for Li batteries - at the last stage of charging, when cell balancing is done at the very low current (0.3A) ESD chargers sometimes freeze, sometimes fail completly.For NiMH batteries it is a great charger though - if housing is sealed with silicon it can last forever.

EVPS (Runke) chargers are in gold square box, with single fan - they were manufactured between 2009 and 2013 in vew revisions 1.5, 1.9, 2.0, 2.0N, 3.0, and there was a revision 3.0NFD  sold by us only. In general it is not a good quality charger, some power diodes on main board fail quite often, sometimes another few components around resulting with NO Ouput failure. We were selling these chargers afer reworking / upgrading them (added fuese on AC side, better diode, changed some resistor etc). We still have some stock of them - used mostly for older bikes / warranty purpose.Look for S00540 in our online shop (www.shop.vectrixparts.com) - it comes with warranty and is upgraded to the best we coudl do with this hardware.

If you have Li scooter or planning conversion - we strongly reccomend new type of charger 3.3.kW TC charger - available in our shop online (S00541). It is not cheap but realy worth its price - fully enclosed IP67, manufactured in thousands for an electric cars, zero failure rate after selling over 200 of them, completly quite and double power (half time to charge) comparing to ESD/EVPS.

Is the picture above for using original bms-boards in 36s setup instead of 40s setup right?

I'm doing a similar conversion with samsung INR18650-25R cells.

Great resource this forum ;o)

Hi Gunther,

Yes, you can use original BMS boards in both configuration(36s and 40s). Differences are in connection and software configuration.

hello piotr or Mateo 

I have 2 questions :

- I cannot communicated with the ICM board (red in the diagnostic soft), it’s possible to send you the ICM board and reprogramming the PIC ? 

- I want convert the vx1 with 52Ah, but it’s possible to configure the charger with this power ? How I can configure the soft?

Thanks for your feedback

Clément 

Clement

Yes you can send us the ICM board - we will try to repair it.

What charger do you have?

Hello Piotr 

Thanks for your feedback, but I have bought a pic debugger and I succeed to debug the ICM board. 

Thanks

Clement 

Hi Peter, I'm currently running 19 Leaf modules with latest Dugas firmware. It's 2007 VX1 with ESD charger. No other mods on a bike. Would you please suggest what options I have for the BMS from you? 

Andrei. 

Sorry, spell checker, Piotr... 

Hello Piotr, 

I'm new here though it's my second WX 1. never modified exept by a reseller during warranty time ( fast charger now)

in about 6 years and 2 VX: 1rst problem....:)

 No more charging. Stops after few seconds and displaying  : high 430   low  292.

after several tries, charging came back for 1 time only.

a former owner of VX 1 helped me.

result is on photo.

I guess I shoul change 1 cell, maybe two.   or is it a BMS mistake?  and can I easily slow down the charging current to make batteries last longer?

Thank you.

P.S.   VX is given for 180km and Itried successfully 140 when I bought it (used, 1000 KM)

After trying contacting Vecrix team over email, posting here, opening a private ticket, nobody came back to me. So, don't spend your time waiting for the reply here.  

Hi,

   The charger firmware aborts the charging process if any of the measured cell values - in fact any of the four High Cell values - are above 4.2 V. This is for safety reasons.

Your problem in the 4.209 V on that block, that needs to be fixed. Since the block under it shows as 3.941 V it is quite possible the small wires that are used for the measurement have a minor contact problem distorting the values measured by the BMS.

The BMS is simply a 4x9 channel multimeter (ADC) in its default state when the balancing is inactive.

/ Azzuro

Thank you very much Azzuro.

the next question is:

Fisrt step: opening VX to check cables

2) recheck cells with canbus

3) check the cell with a multimeter

4) if really above 4.2, slightly and slowly dichage the cell with the right resistance value (U=R*I) let's say 100mA  R= 4/0.1=40 ohms 0.5 watts.

5) restart charger when cell is around 4.08

Am I right?

If it restarts, I'll try if a cell goes down again under 2.92 riding. As it did as first symptom. Before charging worked 1 time only after several tries .

Thank you.

Almost :) You can skip the step 2 - the values you see in the Diag are based on CAN bus.

3) Check all suspected cells with a multimeter when the Vectrix is off and while it is on

4) Check the respective cell measuring points on the BMS card

The next step can be decided based on the results.

Hello Azzuro,

Back with my problem. I checked all I could (even inside theBMS wich had a internal plug slightly moving). swapped the two DB25 plugs. The problem swapped too on the screen (slightly different). That mean it could be from the battery pack.  

Balance can't be achieved. (hi 4.15; low 4.08) after 10 hours in EO mode. never stops.

now; gauge never goes higher than 13 bars. I will recheck manually cell by cell to compare BMS and multimeter. and see if one cell still looses 1volt in 30 seconds as charged with multimetrer.. but not with BMS plugged.

Shop for parts has disappeared. Do you know anything about?

Thank you.

Indeed the voltage measurements (per cell block vs. BMS) are needed to see if it is an issue with the cells or the sensing wires.

The stock BMS works on a simple concept called top balancing, it will attempt to charge all cell blocks to 4.2 volts. In the EQ mode the blocks which reached this voltage are "discharged" with the respective balancing resistors - however due to an equivalent 1A charging current still flowing they actually maintain their voltage level. The rest of the cell blocks are still charged up in order to reach the same nominal 4.2 volts eventually.

The gauge is not really important, it is just FYI for the expert user :) You can set it to any level you want from the diag app.

Yep the shop webpage has disappeared, maybe Vectrix is sunsetting their support - hoping users will support each other with the knowledge and parts we collected over the years.

Thank you very very very much.

I was wondering how to save THIS site before it closes....

something like a page vaccum cleaner. to recreate another site.

sylvain_lecoeur@hotmail.com

Bnos dias estoy mirando comprar una vx1 para hacer el cambio a baterias litio de panasonic son celdas de 3.2v y 5 ah , que mas necesitaria poner para que todo funcione correctamente? e visto en su web que el cargador que vendeis es a 48 voltios , es una falla , la bateria tienen que tener 130 voltios y me estoy volviendo un poco loco , una vez instalado todo , deveria hacer algun tipo de actualizacion?

gramocias por su tiempo

I'm currently converting from Nimh to Li, I already have the BMS, now only the loader is missing. The vectrix shop has disappeared. Where can I have my loader converted or buy a finished one

Thank you for the information.
Can you help me how I can get a charger for 38 cells with 3.7V or how I can have my Nimh charger converted?

Hi Thomas,

   There are two types of chargers, the older ones with silver housing and the newer golden "Runke" ones. Which type do you have including the product / version number ?

Hi there,

2 cables without plugs come out at the bottom of the charger.
The loader is silver and has a sticker with the following inscription.

Part No P00
Serial No S000696
Software V4.20
Hardware P 1.42-D

On the inside there is another connector labeled J1 Battery Charger V5000

2 fans can be seen

I still have a charger from my parts dispenser.
With the inscription

ESD
SW: V2.008
HW: P1.48

The housing is silver and has 2 square plugs at the bottom. 2 fans can be seen on the inside

That is the old charger, the most you can have is withthe Dugas firmware and software (http://dugasengineering-com.3dcartstores.com/Vectrix-Support_c_16.html) allowing you to set up your charger for Li-Ion. This would give you sufficient functionality - however as with all Li-Ion you must add BMS as well. The challenge is no BMS will be able to communicate to this charger not even the Vectrix ones.Accordingly the BMS should work independently from the charger.

In summary it is pretty complex with this charger. The golden Runke (only V2) is the good candidate or even the Elcon TC family which is the best.

OK, where can I get an Elcon TC?

These are fairly standard and could be found in many EV related webshops, I got mine from the Aliexpress. For the Vectrix the HK-J-144-23 version is the proper one (must be capable to provide the required 150 V voltage basically).

I will build in mine in the next few months and can share the details along the way (currently I am still on Runke V2).

that also fits with the Vectrix BMS?

Theoretically yes - I will know only when I see it working - a matching BMS firmware version will be needed. A converter cable is also required which was available from the Vectrix webshop but can be reproduced as well.

Overall it is not easy but doable. The net result would be a 3.3kW charger that is two times faster than any of the original Vectrix chargers.

Hello Azzuro,

I have another problem. Since my Vectrix only drives 100kmh I uploaded the update from the service page to the Vectrix. then I also calibrated the encoder. So far everything has worked. But now the Vectrix drives backwards instead of forwards.
I did the rotation test in the diagnosis software and the wheel is turning the right way round.
Where is the mistake

Hi Thomas,

   That is a strange problem :) When you mention encoder, is that the throttle on the handlebar or the encoder on the rear wheel ?

The encoder for the rear wheel. it can be calibrated in the diagnostic software. 
Strangely enough, the wheel turns around correctly when you press the button for rotation test.
When I accelerate, the light in the cockpit lights up for reverse.

To be honest I have never touched that encoder. You can try to lift the rear of the bike and try different things in the diag including reverse throttle if that is reversed as well.

You mentioned firmware update, you can try to go back to the original version if that fixes the problem. To this point if your battery is in proper shape the top speed should be more that 110 km/h indeed, with some versions close to 130 km/h.

Hello,

After buying a scooter in a running condition but with a charger out of order, I replaced the batteries and the charger, but I now have a sudden acceleration defect. Could you help me please? I have added the history below:

phase 1: scooter purchase

scooter from 12/02/2010, lithium MPtech model

defective charger 1004061 V19NFD

- replacement of batteries from elements of the latest generation Nissan Leaf

---> rolling test OK

phase 2: purchase of the replacement charger April 2025

model: 1004251 gold-colored case

previously installed on a lithium model,

- installation of the charger

---> impossible to start

recovery of the original charger CPU card 1004061 V19NFD + identical modification

--> start OK, charge OK

---> but 2 problems noted:

1 - when the charger is connected (via J3) at some point, the key lights up on the dashboard, but no error when connecting the diagnostic program

2 - at acceleration depending on the position of the wheel, nothing happens, or the engine growls without moving. Just turn the wheel a little so that the acceleration is normal.

Do the software versions need to be updated?

Currently:

Other information from the diagnostic tool:

Hi, 

   There might be multible issues based on your description. The first detail that stands out is the firmware on the motor controller (MC). The FRA firmwares are written by Framuga to support his BMS in terms of the communication between the various components - in other words he has written dedicated versions to allow the charger, the motor controller and the ICM to work seamlessly with his hardware.

Accordingly you may need to replace the firmware on the MC to match your stock BMS. Worth noting the MC FW change requires particular attention since any disruption during the process may erase the controller and recovery requires special tools and knowledge (I am able to restore it). The best practice is to completely disconnect the charger and the BMS from the CAN bus for this step. 

If you could share a picture of your BMS board(s) and the list of FW versions you have currently.

Hello Azzuro,

Thank you for your analysis. I am sending you pictures of the BMS cards, the installed pack, the labels on the MC, as well as a screenshot of the diagnostic tool that must read the software versions (if this is indeed the case).

I extracted the MC board and found a fuse out of order. (on the picture) I started doing reference searches equivalent to T 40A 250V and it’s not easy to find a reference that can match.

I’m sorry, next time I would import smaller photos

Salut Lionel,

Looks good, this is the last BMS version Vectrix has offered and should be fully compatible with the CAN requirements. 

In terms of the firmware versions my question was not precise enough, what I've meant the complete list of all hex files you have available to use (for example if you have the actual MCR2042-1.hex which is shown on your screenshot). 

The defective fuse is not related to your problem, they are simply protecting the Murata supercapacitors and sometimes they fail indeed. Since this exact type is not in production anymore, we tend to replace them with equivalent SMD fuses.

Well, I have only 4 Hex files download from the site https://vectrixparts.userecho.com/

MCR2042-4.hex

EVPS LiMn 36s-2.hex

DIY_1708.hex

BMS R64 9cell.hex

I'd recommend to use the MCR2042-4.hex. My assumption is the Framuga MC firmware is not interpreting the CAN messages coming from the charger properly and limits the power as the result. 

In general the MC with the stock firmware is capable to work in case there are proper cell voltage values coming from the BMS but also if these values are completely missing. On the other hand operation is disrupted in case there are forbidden values on the bus namely cell overvoltage or undervoltage. Could you check these values in diag mode : red kill switch on > left brake lever pulled once > red kill switch off - and the respective values displayed on the small LCD on the dashboard. Values like "0" and "nots" indicate wrong data on the bus. 
  

Thank you very much Azzuro,

I could test this diag mode as soon as I have received the fuses to be replaced on the MC board and reinstalled everything. I will keep you informed as soon as possible...

Beautiful day, (here it’s rain and snow since this morning in Savoie)

Lionel

hello,

though not high level specialist, firmwares FRA are not all for magnetic encoder. You may get help on whatsapp line "VECTRIX WORDWIDE". Do you know about it?

Thank you Sylvain for this new possibility of contacts!

Sylvain, 
Do you have a link for the VECTRIX WORDWIDE Whatsapp Group ?
Thanks

Sure, glad you are making progress. Pas de neige ici à Antibes :)

Bonjour Azzuro, voici les dernières nouvelles : (en anglais plus bas)

J'ai remplacé le fusible en panne. Après remontage du contrôleur moteur, je n'ai plus les erreurs "CAPCur" "Vcellow" "Vcellmax" sur le tableau de bord.

J'ai fait votre diagtest et je n'ai rien relevé d'anormal, pas de "0" , pas de "nots".

Par contre je n'arrive toujours pas à étalonner l'offset du moteur et j'ai toujours des accélérations chaotiques.

J'ai utilisé un oscilloscope pour visualiser les tensions et courant moteur. (avec un filtre <3000Hz) Je vois bien les 3 tensions de phases. Je constate cependant qu'en fonction de la position de la roue (chaque cran doit correspondre à 1 aimant et 120° du capteur) il y a une position sur 3 ou je n'ai pas de tension et rien à l'accélération.

Je n'imagine pas que le moteur puisse être à l'origine de ce problème.

Est-ce que l'outil de diagnostique permet de visualiser la position du capteur en live ?

Je peux vous proposer un échange téléphonique ou par visio pour vous montrer la forme des signaux que j'ai enregistré si cela ne vous dérange pas trop.

Bonne journée et à bientôt,

Lionel

Hello Azzuro, here is the latest news: (in English below)

I replaced the broken fuse. After reassembling the engine controller, I no longer have the errors "CAPCur" "Vcellow" "Vcellmax" on the dashboard.
I did your diagtest and I didn’t notice anything abnormal, no "0", no "nots".
On the other hand, I still can’t calibrate the offset of the engine and I always have chaotic accelerations.
I used an oscilloscope to view the motor voltages or current. (with a <3000Hz filter) I can see the 3 phase voltages well. I notice however that depending on the position of the wheel (each notch must correspond to 1 magnet and 360° of the sensor) there is one position out of 3 where I have no tension and nothing at acceleration.
I can’t imagine that the engine could be the cause of this problem.
Does the diagnostic tool allow to visualize the sensor position live?
I can offer you a telephone or video exchange to show you the form of the signals that I have recorded if that doesn’t bother you too much.

Good day and see you soon,
Lionel

Bonjour Lionel,

   Mon français est loin d'être parfait encore, je vais donc continuer à utiliser l'anglais pour notre conversation. Apparently there are some promising news for the fuse of the supercapacitor and also with the cell voltages detection (I guess you've replaced the firmware on the MC). 

Concerning the MC itself, yes there is a calibration function in the diag application under the Encoder tab. You could try to run the calibration (with the rear wheel lifted of course). Unfortunately based on the symptoms you've described - more precisely asymmetric behaviour between the 3 phrases - there is a chance it won't help. One of the weak points of these motor controllers is the IGBT module that drives the motor. While I've never had problems with those in my two scooters, this happens sometimes. I have a few broken MCs from other people with missing modules.

If it is defective the options are
(1) buying a used MC from internet, obviously there is no guarantee it will have a working IGBT 

(2) replace the module (Mitsubishi PM300CLA060), the challenge is there is a row of control pins to be carefully desoldered

(3) fixing the IGBT module itself, the bad news is it is filled with epoxy  

If you prefer to check the problem in more detail you can run additional tests with the oscilloscope including the input signals of the IGBT (https://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/161781/MITSUBISHI/PM300CLA060.html).

While I've never seen a defective motor it may be worth to check the resistance between the 3 coils on the motor itself.

Forgot to respond to your last remark. Feel free to share the pictures of the signals here in the blog - if something would not be clear we could agree to have a zoom call later as well.

Thank you very much Azzuro,

I will try to take measurements this weekend.

- return signals from the encoder

- input and output of the IGBT (paying attention to the different GNDs)

Have a good weekend,

Lionel

No probs at all - please find the page showing the relevant part of the MC. It is a fairly simple design with 3-3 opto gates driving the positive and negative sides of the IGBT for the 3 phases (U,V,W). B+ stands for the positive voltage of the battery.  

As shown in theory the IGBT fault should be detected (and the respective error displayed in the application and on the dashboard) but as far as I know this does not happen in all the cases. It is basically a logical OR function realized with the 4 gates shown.

hello Azzuro, I'm gathering every document I can about Vectrix maintenance. To help owners. On you doc, is written "sheet 6 of 12". Have you got the other eleven ones? Thx.

Bonjour Sylvain, 

Yes I have the complete file, please send an email to the following address : vectrixshare@gmail.com

Hello Azzuro,

Via the J5 connector, I was able to control the signals coming from the encoder. I found square signals on the 2 inputs "Encoder Incremental Input". Those are signals whose frequency varies with the rotation speed. About 5Khz at 10km/h. As I don’t have differential oscilloscope probes, I couldn’t visualize signal A compared to signal B. So I don’t yet see how the processor measures the angle in degrees (but I will try soon with isolated probes).

No signals on the "Encoder Hall Sensor Input" inputs.

To control the signals at the input of the IGBT, would you please have the layout diagram of the components? I can send you my email if you want.

In advance thank you!

And especially thank you for your help and patience :) !

Salut Lionel,

   I haven't had any problems with the encoder yet therefore I have little experience with it, however I will check the background this week to figure out how it works. In general I would expect signals on all 5 input ports (Hall A/B/C and ENC A/B).

Regarding the IGBT block, I don't have a layout diagram but it is fairly easy to find the respective optocouplers, they are next to the IGBT control pins on the PCB. On the other hand I have the circuit diagrams for the MC, please drop me an (email :  vectrixshare@gmail.com) regarding those.

No worries for the patience, we are here to help each other :) 

Thank you Azzuro,

I also have the 12 pages of electronic diagrams that help me understand part of the operation. I am still sending you my email address which could be used for the future...

Have a good day,

Lionel

Bonjour Lionel,

Great, thank you. We could use emails indeed for exchanging files which may not be of interest of the wider community indeed. 

Meanwhile I've checked the encoder and I see conflicting statements if Hall sensors are in use or the angular detection only relies on the optical sensor. Some claim it is not in use and I don't see Hall elements on the pictures of the board either (I am not in the position here in Antibes to check it myself). On the other hand I see references to the Hall functionality in the pre-production versions of the MC firmware.

https://i.imgur.com/AXDbSoO.png